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Post by Deleted on Mar 17, 2016 20:33:45 GMT -6
Etsy made some recent changes to their shops and with this came about a discussion for Shipping and Return rules directed at EU countries. I believe this is a new EU legislation and should apply to any seller off of Etsy, not just on Etsy. Actually, a few of the sellers on Etsy said that this legislation has been around for a year now, but I never knew it. The EU countries are: Austria, Belgium, Bulgaria, Croatia, Republic of Cyprus, Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Ireland, Italy, Latvia, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Malta, Netherlands, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain, Sweden and the UK. These are most of the countries that I like to ship to other than Canada and Australia which are not a part of EU. The rules are showing the countries in EU can return (except handmade and perishables) to the seller living in the USA and that the sellers would also have to pay back the original cost of shipping to the country that the buyer paid. It is called European Union Directive on Consumer Rights. Shipping to international has become very expensive. My last two international buyers did not finish off their purchase due to the high cost of shipping. And now seeing this consumer rights for the countries of EU is just another roadblock to me. After today I will be removing shipping to international. Another reason for me, because of the high cost of shipping, I am paying out more money to Paypal for international. It just does not seem worth it to me anymore in my honest opinion. Here is the link on Etsy: www.etsy.com/uk/help/article/39397023331 |
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Post by PickyChicky on Mar 18, 2016 9:35:57 GMT -6
I thought those rules only applied to EU sellers selling to EU customers. I don't see how they can enforce legislation in a country that is not part of the EU. I know we discussed this on Etsy's forums a few months or so ago and that is what I took away from it, which is why I didn't post anything about it here. Sounds like I need to look into it further.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 18, 2016 15:02:23 GMT -6
There are a few saying that it applies to people only in EU.
There are few areas via the link where it makes it sound like sellers selling to EU...
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Post by thecornerstonecowboy on Mar 18, 2016 17:32:57 GMT -6
Simple solution: Just remove EU countries from your shipping profiles.
I do not use calculated shipping, so that is what I did last year.
I only allowed UK on both my eCrater sites because there are sister stores for my sites in the UK.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 18, 2016 18:20:11 GMT -6
PickyChicky I was editing my shop policies due to the new Etsy shop look they are doing in a few weeks. When editing a length of time for returns, the following message popped up. This confirms that it is for countries shipping to EU. 
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Post by Deleted on Mar 18, 2016 18:25:21 GMT -6
Thank you Cornerstone. I'll do that on Etsy.
For my store, unfortunately, I cannot pick and choose selectively. I guess I can start new international shipping details for countries other than EU. But I'm gonna have to block international buyers from being able to make a purchase because they never read my policies in that they have to email me for a shipping quote prior to purchasing. Otherwise, if they go ahead and make the purchase, I have to then send them an invoice for shipping in which the last two buyers did not finish the transaction due to the high cost of shipping now.
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Post by PickyChicky on Mar 19, 2016 12:38:39 GMT -6
Well, I finally had a moment to actually read the article linked to in the first post. I'm not liking the idea of having to eat the cost of shipping to the EU customer for general returns. I was willing to accept that risk for damaged, defective and lost items because I had insurance to cover those instances, but there's nothing to protect sellers from that risk for general returns.
It's funny...we always used to hear complaints from non-US customers about how so many of us US sellers wouldn't ship to them. Then more sellers opened their doors to them, including me, and now this. It will be interesting to see how many US sellers close their doors to international customers, particularly EU customers.
I, for one, will be closing my doors to EU customers simply because I have no way to protect myself from fraud. Yes, fraud is rampant and there is no protection that works 100%, but these regulations pretty much eliminated ANY protection down to 0%. So, until someone is willing to insure the cost of shipping to EU customers for general returns, which I doubt will ever happen, or the EU provides some sort of protection for sellers, EU customers will just have to shop elsewhere.
I hate having to take such a firm stance on the matter, but this is my business and it's up to me how much risk I'm willing to take. If I were a big retail chain that could afford such losses, it wouldn't be such an issue. When legislators make these laws, they shouldn't lump big business in with small businesses because their needs and risk levels are completely different.
Furthermore, I don't understand how a legal entity can enforce laws on businesses not located in their domain. As far as I'm concerned, only US law applies to me because I'm on US soil. My postal service keeps me notified of what I can and cannot ship to international destinations, but they don't tell me how to run my business.
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Post by PickyChicky on Mar 19, 2016 13:06:25 GMT -6
Okay, hold the phone! I took a moment to do a bit of research because I don't see how the EU can enforce laws on non-EU members and this is what I found: The European Commission's Key Facts on the new EU Consumer Rights Directive (clickable link). It is a publication directly from the European Commission that sums up the European Union Directive on Consumer Rights (clickable link) and I can tell you that it confirms what some of us have been saying -- it does NOT apply to non-EU members. Here is the most specific quote from the above link: "They strengthen consumer rights, ensuring a higher level of protection regardless of whether consumers are shopping on the high street or online, in their own country or elsewhere in the EU." So, I will definitely be copying this to Etsy's forums. I thought it rather odd that Etsy was NOT providing a link to the Directive within their article for sellers to confirm the information as correct or answer questions they may have, so I went looking for it myself. They're making it sound like ALL sellers must comply with these regulations, which is not the case, while also recommending that we sell to EU states despite the risk. I don't know why they would do that, but can think of one reason...they don't want to deal with the backlash from EU sellers for having different requirements than non-EU sellers. Unfortunately, they risk losing revenue when a boatload of sellers stop selling to EU customers. So it really makes no sense. |
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Post by PickyChicky on Mar 19, 2016 13:25:15 GMT -6
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Post by Deleted on Mar 19, 2016 14:39:44 GMT -6
There has been a bit of an uproar on Etsy this week since they announced their store home page redesign which included Etsy-recommended store policies. Most of the changes are ones I can adapt to even if I do not think they are necessarily improvements. But the policy options seem to be a stickler for quite a few sellers. The Etsy-recommended policies are less than professional and even make the sellers sound a bit anti-buyer. Add to the mix that Etsy has seemed to say that stores that do not adopt the Etsy-recommended policies will be disadvantaged in some way in search (even if sellers do provide their own policies).
Also, new stores appear to be forced into adopting the Etsy-defined policies, rather than being allowed to craft their own.
It may well be that the EU rules are behind some of the Etsy-recommended policies. Unfortunately, it looks more like Etsy is taking another page from eBay's play book.
On the other hand, the USPS increases for international shipping in the last few years have already gone a long way to killing my international sales. So international sales may well be a mute point for a lot of sellers, including myself. Eliminating international sales policies is a lot easier if you have not had any/many international sales to worry about. Just another blow to the small independent e-seller.
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Post by PickyChicky on Mar 19, 2016 17:48:51 GMT -6
@ted, I haven't seen the announcement you're referring to. I'll have to go take a look. I've been busy trying to squash all the fear-mongers on my Etsy thread who are reading far more into the EU Directive than what is actually stated. As one poster said, EU sellers have been bashing their heads in over this and now they have non-EU sellers bashing their heads in as well when it doesn't even apply to them. LOL
Okay...a while later...I went and checked my shop and see the announcement about the new look. So, I started to edit mine and came at a stopping point when I found out I had to completely redo my banner because of the size requirements. I'm still working on that, so haven't gotten passed that point, yet.
Dad is working on their taxes, so I have to be available to answer questions, which he has several this year due to the new ACA and other tax requirements. So, I'll have to get back to you later on the Etsy-recommended policies thing. If not today, then tomorrow. It's nearly 7p and we haven't even discussed dinner, yet. LOL
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Post by PickyChicky on Mar 20, 2016 11:44:59 GMT -6
Just posted a response to the thread (link below). Hopefully it will be my final response. So many sellers are making unfounded claims that are confusing the majority. It irks me. Especially since what they're claiming makes absolutely no business sense for Etsy or the EU. I mean, what do you think will happen if... - The EU tries to enforce its laws on non-EU sellers? Whether related to their return policy or VAT collection?
- Etsy tries to enforce EU law on non-EU sellers? Whether related to their return policy or VAT collection?
- Etsy requires all sellers to adopt one set of policies, particularly if they're seller unfriendly like the EU return policy on international sales?
While I don't have a problem with Etsy adding VAT to international sales to the EU, I do have a problem if they think I'm going to do the collecting and reporting of it. In order for me to accept it, Etsy must be the one collecting and reporting it. If not, then I will simply stop selling to EU states. However, what about my standalone shop? Am I going to be required to do the same for it? Again, what do you think my choice will be if that happens? LOL Like Presto users, I may not be able to stop EU customers from making purchases, but I can certainly refund their money in full and simply refuse to sell to them. Is that what Etsy and the EU really want? I mean, think about it. There will be far fewer international sellers who accept such things than those who don't. How much money do Etsy and the EU states stand to lose? Anywho, CLICK HERE for my latest post. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2016 13:14:16 GMT -6
In my opinion, Etsy's canned policies are not written badly. It's when you go to change the date of returns that Etsy has a popup pop up about EU, in which case this is how the discussion here began  But I actually go a step further with my return policy than Etsy does (this statement is not related to EU as I plan not to ship to EU), it is a little more generous on the shipping part of it for the USA. So, Etsy's policies will not work for my shop. Question, do we really get penalized if we do not use Etsy's policies? If so, then I'll just have to use them and not go the step further with returns unlike Etsy. |
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